**EDIT (3:25 3/5/07):- To clear up a couple of things. I do come from a upper middle class family but I don't think i suffer from elite isolationism. Two of my really good friends were sons of cab-drivers and another one learn't the entire Koran by rote. His goal was to grow up to become a mullah. Look this article is not about how religious countries are as a whole or which country is a better place to live but it is about how people as individuals are wrapped up in their religion. **
All right I am writing this article because of this comment thread on reddit.
Let me preface what I am about to say with this - I was born, and spent the first 8 years of my life, in India. Next I spent a year in Kenya, a year in Saudi Arabia, 7 years in the UAE and now 3 years in Kirksville Missouri doing my undergrads. In between I have visited, on vacations, somewhere near 23 countries (including Germany and most countries in the Middle east). I don't mean to state all of this as a boast but merely to illustrate that I am not speaking from a limited or narrow experience.
Coming to the US my biggest shock was how seriously people took religion. It was a form of religious intensity that I had never encountered. In Saudi I had endured a totalitarian theocracy (is there another kind?) but I had never seen the man on the street be so wrapped up in their religion. I had never met people who defined themselves, first and foremost, on the basis of their religion. Yeah living in the Middle East I was aware of all the extremist fundamentalists. But they were the fringe. They were like UFOs. You only heard of them, you never actually met them in real life. None of my Muslim friends listed the Koran as their favorite book. They never included any suras as their favorite quotes. Sure there were Muslim mullahs on the TV but no one really actually listened to those programs. Anyhow they were TEACHING the Koran as opposed to PREACHING it.
So when I came to the US I was shocked, absolutely stunned at just how absolutely people believed the Bible. This was the first time in my entire life that I had a religious text cited to me during a scientific debate. When one of my dorm-mates tossed out the "Evolution is an unproven theory whit a lot of holes" line at me I didn't even realize that it was the opening line for a serious debate. For a second I thought it was a throwaway one-liner. He doubted evolution! Not just one odd guy, but dozens upon dozens came at me that night. I actually have met 3 different people since that night who actually doubt that the earth is more than a few thousand years old. I still can't wrap my head around this concept.
Another thing that has shocked me how strongly people feel about converting non christians to Christianity. This driven by the constant overarching belief that all non christians are wrong and are going to go to hell (something I have been told bluntly to my face). There is an inability to conceive of the fact that they might be the ones who are wrong. No one, not one single person in my 8 years in the middle east ever tried to convert me to Islam. Not once did anyone suggest that not being Muslim meant that I was going to suffer.
The problem with the mid west is the sheer homogeneity of it. Growing up in a culture where everyone is of the same religion as you, where everyone shares the same believes as you, i can see how anything different maybe considered strange or unnatural. Growing up I ate at iftar during Ramadan with my friends. They burst firecrackers with me during Diwali. We all went to Christmas parties. There was no awkwardness in celebrating religious festivals of a different religion. it never felt weird. But here in the US I cannot think of celebrating christimas. It somehow feel strange. And I am not the only one to feel so. Thats why Kwanzaa and Hanukkah are sort of celebrated/marketed as the christimas alternatives. Thats why malls are afraid of hanging up signs that say 'Happy Christmas'. Hell malls back home (in in the UAE) had gigantic banners saying merry Christmas, no one thought that was strange or somehow offensive.
Perhaps it come with being the worlds only super-power, but somewhere along the line the people of the US started taking themselves too seriously. Somehow the words 'under God' in a pledge have become so important that the Supreme Court needs to rule on this. I went to an Indian school where we recited the standard muslim prayer every day. Then we sang a prayer that appealed to a single almighty god. At no point did this offend the sensibilities of the mostly Hindu student population. We understood that emphasizing one religion does not necessarily denigrate another. 'Unity through Diversity' after all was the motto for India. Somehow this is a lesson that US has not yet managed to learn.
Thursday, April 5, 2007
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26 comments:
And I quote "...I am not speaking from a limited or narrow experience."
So... you're basing your opinion on 3 years in Kirksville, MO. How is that not limited or narrow?
As my Muslim friend once said "I'm not going to force my beliefs on you as I am not a Koran-thumper"
Very interesting and perceptive post. Keep writing please.
I grew up in California. I've lived in Colorado as well, but the last 6 years I've been in St Louis. I'm not as well traveled as you, but I certainly can relate to your experiences in the midwest. It is not an occasional thing that a coworker or casual acquaintance goes off on some tear about the evil liberal atheists and their lies about evolution and environment and abortion. It is an every day thing. And this is in the big 'liberal' St Louis metro area. From what I've heard from friends it's far worse in the rural parts of the state, and I would assume it is similar in other midwestern states.
When people first started fearing Muslim extremists after 9/11 my first thought was "Um, you know there are Christian extremists here in the U.S. who are probably way more of a threat to our freedom, right?"
Indeed. A very interesting perspective. Do keep it up.
Thank you for this positing, I find this topic very interesting and would like to comment on the following:
"Coming to the US my biggest shock was how seriously people took religion" --
I would have thought the other countries you mentioned would take religion seriously as well. To me, religion defines my purpose for existing as well as my understanding of right and wrong. I can not understand truly "believing" and choosing to live contrary to that belief.
On the one hand, I share your frustration with those who are intolerable of other beliefs and lifestyles, but on the other, I expect someone who overtly makes claim to a belief to act accordingly.
For instance, would it seem better to claim a belief in Christianity and not attempt to "[convert] non christians to Christianity?" or make the claim and never try to share the beliefs.
It is fundamental in the Christian religion to share beliefs with anyone who is interested (which I think many today have a problem distinguishing those who are interested from those who are not).
Anyway, this comment went farther than I expected...
I really enjoyed your article and for the most part I agree with you and can otherwise see and respect your view. Thank you for sharing.
A lot of this rings true, but there's something else I learned during my time in an equally incomprehensible town in the midwest--growing up amid so much homogeneity, a lot of the people who are talking to you really have no idea what else is out there. Because of this, a large percentage of them will actually listen to you when you debate them, as long as you're polite and avoid the hot buttons that make them scream "Blasphemy!" and cover their ears.
I think you're 100% on the ball there. The states seem to be flooded with fear and it is reducing their ability to see the forest for the trees. (If they ever did?) I'm Irish (predominantly Catholic) and it is none of my business what religion my neighbours are, and if they get the hump over religious festivals held here it's their problem. Same gets reversed for me.
I wish more people could have open minds about things, but it never was the case and never will be.
I think it is mostly ignorance that allows people to not know what's out there, in a recent debate with a friend from New York State, I managed to name more American counties than him, how is one expected to know what's past their own borders?
How is the U.S., or the midwest, or whatever, more "religious" as you say than the eastern countries when they kill people who don't follow their beliefs. I don't know what kind of special government protection you had over there, but in India, Christians and Muslims are persecuted severely. In most Muslim countries, everyone else is persecuted. So, if we are more zealous here and more determined to force Christianity on everyone else, then why do we not have Christians mass executing those who disagree.
matt, I don't know where you work. But I live in St. Louis, too, and if I were to go off on tangents like those that you describe at work, I would be fired in an instant. However, my coworkers criticize conservative values and viewpoints all the time and nobody says anything. You are living in a fantasy world.
jookie, how many years does it take to have a valid opinion?
anyway, his point was that in those 3 years in middle america he had multiple instances of conversion to xtianity attempts, arguments about evolution, religious intolerance, etc. - things he did not experience elsewhere.
please explain in what way his experience of MO is 'limited'.
There's nothing new here. Perhaps it is your youth and discovery. America's so called heart land is a place of religous bigotry, intolerance and Christian totalitarianism.
Can you imagine the reaction you would receive if you promoted aetheism in the same manner that they promote theology? It would be ugly.
No matter....the midwest is largely an economic rustbelt. For right or wrong, the future belongs to the South and West. The mid west and it's people are irrelevant.
Cheers,
mike
I agree with most of your observations about the midwest. I grew up there. I have also travelled extensively around the world, Middle East included. I must disagree with you about India being less religious than the Midwest however.
As a former Muslim, I'm not so sure. I agree that some fundie Christians can be annoying, and I find that evolution is a much better explanation for existence than creationsim. But I've encountered people all over the world who preach reltigious intolerance and hatred. I've had Muslims threaten me over the phone upon learning that I didn't veil (can you imagine?).
Yes, the Pentacostals are an odd group. But I've never had a Christian threaten my life.
I was born in Hong Kong, grew up in Australia, lived in Toronto,CA, Philadelphia,Pa, and CLeveland, OH. I have been to many of the countries that you state in your preface, as well as scores more. I disagree with your article. I have found the midwest to be way more tolerant and open minded than you make it out to be, as compared to other countries. I have met: Atheists, Muslims, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, and many other living in the midwest who do not preach their faith. Further, I don't see how your perception of "how religous people are" as having a measurable basis in your limited three year contact. Just as my travels have not given deep insight into the lives of large populaces in different countries. I appreciate your article, I think it was well written, but I feel it is meant to be inflammatory. Perhaps my perceptions ar wrong also. Thank you for your writings. Cheers.
You guys are talking about the "South," not the mid-west.
lols @ UFOs
Good post. I just returned from travelling in India and found it remarkable how many different Indians celebrated Christmas as if it was just an excuse for a party. Most of them were Hindu naturally however it was considered normal to party at this time of year. Christmas has no religious meaning to them.
This is in fact very similar to Australia. Anyone under 40 celebrates christmas and easter simply because it's a holiday and a time to party not because these holidays have anything to do with a make believe friend for grown ups.
You say you're amazed at how religious the mid-west is. I say I'm amazed at how religious the US is in general. Whether in person or through the press you hear about religion all the time. In Australia and many of the other 44 countries I have visited and lived in religion is not really discussed. It's not discussed because nobody take it seriously. The fact that the US takes it seriously is what perpetually amazes me.
How can they be so removed from mainstream modernised thought?
So... you're basing your opinion on 3 years in Kirksville, MO. How is that not limited or narrow?
3 years in one place is more than enough time to get to know it. For a reasonably intelligent, thoughtful, experienced person, 3 months can suffice.
Read your insightful post at Steve Gilliard's TheNewsBlog and left these comments there. Thanks.
I converted to Islam in January, 2007, from 55 years of Lutheran (ELCA) indoctrination and 4 months of UCC Bible Study.
My top three reasons were:
a) What I learned about the Prophet from Western scholars Karen Armstrong and Leo Schlain
b) Hours of conversations with local Muslims about history, politics, geo-politics, religion
c) What I learned reading the Bible. The O.T. god of wrath, vengance, anger & jealousy and the New Testament sops to Rome were blatant political propaganda. What kind of God would want His Word to be so convoluted and obtuse.
But I was always an outsider in the wealthy, midwestern white/ white-collar world. Had "it all" once, suburban home, high profile career, etc, but it was like dust in my mouth. But I grew up in a blue collar agricultural town.
I believe the religious fanatacism of the midwest flows from the emptyness flowing from beliefs in the superiority of the white race, and American exceptionalism coupled with the realities daily life.
When the internal inconsistencies of your beliefs (white supremacy) bump into reality (who ever mostly feels supreme) the fissures will rupture. The rupture produces self-hatred or hatred of "the ungodly other" or an uncomfortabe numbness.
Those unwilling to look into the mirror can become slaves to their own preconceived conceits ... boots on the ground and cannon fodder for the wealthy and powerful whose agendas are to enrich themselves evermore. (They too hunger but are not filled.)
Our present day GOP true believers.
While at first I feel like I agree, you simply can't make a large generalization about the entire Midwest. The Midwest is very spread out, places with sparse populations, and places with dense populations. People are differ geographically.
For instance (atleast where I live in Columbus, OH) there is an equal mix of people who are one or the other. I also go to school there too, and kids my age tend to be left leaning and open-minded, but I know some people personally who live by the Bible in everyday of their lives.
This is a very broad generalization, but I find people in and around cities tend to be more open-minded (but still may be religious). Of course, you have to remember to throw in socio-cultural factors too.
I'm offended at the mention of any religion. The same way I would be offended if someone brought up their make beleive friend as a counter point. All religion is nonsense, just let it go.
I liked your article very much, and posted it over at my blog, Hellbound Alleee. I lived in Canada for awhile, and I also sensed the difference there, where they speak several languages (not just English and French) as par for the course, and they just don't take religion that seriously. There is just more awareness that there happens to be an entire world out there besides "America" and one's own cultural experience. I am comparing a big city in the US, Seattle, with Montreal, and even tiny little towns in British Columbia. You just don't have to be a Church Head all the time, to be fulfilled spiritually. Anyway, good job on your article.
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im with you dude.. all the way.. but theres the thing that ur example of uae is really one of the most religiously toerant plaxes here.. not even in india here in kerala have i experienced that much of an atmosphere.. here iwas approached by more than 2 of my friends for conversion..while in dubai, as hard as it is to believe, there were none.. and not to speak of the other religious extremities that take place here.. like gujarat etc..
dude vikram.. u there ?.. wats up on ur end man, never heard from u for long..
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